It's impossible to tell if OP's on the spectrum. I used to think I could do that until I got close with a Clinical Psychologist. Sometimes it can't be confirmed even after a few in-person sessions with professionals, so it's certainly dangerous to "guess" it from a few internet comments.

For sure, but this person is asking for help and it’s worth pointing out that there is a lot of socially unacceptable behavior going on here. If he/she doesn’t understand that, it’s probably coming through in the interviews and would explain the ghosting. This is not a diagnosis, it’s a suggestion to get one.

I think parent was saying that author is violating social norms - either because they are oblivious to them (like it is to some people on the spectrum) or they are aware of the norms, but do not care for them (which would be sociopathic)

> but do not care for them (which would be sociopathic)

No, disliking social norms is not sociopathic. The critical piece of being sociopathic is a lack of conscience.

That's not true.

A sociopath knows that he's doing something wrong and chooses not to regret it.

A psychopath otoh has a low neural activity in the area of the brain usually associated with empathy.

The main point being that being a sociopath is learned behavior.

Cf. https://youtu.be/6dv8zJiggBs

(I agree that disliking norms are not sociopathic. The norms might be sociopathic.)

(Also: I'm not an expert, I could well be wrong.)

You are wrong on a meta-level.

Both sociopath and psychopath are terms stemming from the early 20th century, where our main concern was to lable people ASAP and prescribe them a "cure".

No professional psychology authority uses either of those terms today. Instead, you get ranked on the Antisocial personality disorder spectrum. This has several advantages, like having an actual statistical body of research behind it etc.

So your random YouTube video might not be wrong in a sense, but more like someone defining what "miasma" or "bloodletting" is: Interesting, but essentially just a talk about medieval medicine.

I would urge you to refrain from (especially) diagnosing people based on public wisdom on psychology.

OP seems fine to me. It's the social norms/environment that seem pathological here.

Who would have thought that if you interact with robots (read: computers) long enough you turn into one yourself, dear Americans...

It's a clown show. I do not envy OP.

I'm seeing a therapist. I had an abusive childhood. Not that it justifies anything. I was also homeschooled since the 6th grade, so I didn't really have any IRL friends etc. I hope that I'm not a sociopath... I might be on the high functioning autisim scale. I've never been tested so I don't know.

Yeah, I'd guess that you're on the spectrum. To be quite honest, I see my younger self in your actions. It took me a long time and a lot of work to recognize bad ideas before acting on them, and I wish I could share notes... but I never could learn from other people's advice, only from years of deep reflection after fucking up repeatedly.

But it's good to hear that you're seeing a therapist. I didn't figure that one out until my mid 30s

Edit: I'm not one to crab about downvotes, but if y'all downvoting the parent post could kindly quit that. This person has shared some deep vulnerability here, they're asking for help and doing the work. This shit's a process

> I'm not one to crab about downvotes, but if y'all downvoting the parent post could kindly quit that.

I upvoted parent/OP's post because I agree with you there.

> Yeah, I'd guess that you're on the spectrum.

Unless you are a psychiatrist who has met with OP in person (well, Zoom, these days, I guess), please don't armchair diagnose someone as being autistic. You have no basis or qualifications for this, and reading a couple posts on HN does not count.

> Unless you are a psychiatrist who has met with OP in person (well, Zoom, these days, I guess), please don't armchair diagnose someone as being autistic. You have no basis or qualifications for this, and reading a couple posts on HN does not count.

I got the impression they were also on the spectrum and speaking from a place of familiarity. Sure, not a basis for diagnosis, but "I'd guess" isn't a diagnosis. It's a "yeah that seems to line up for me".

People with neurodivergence spot each other whether we want to or mean to or not. It's incredibly delicate bringing it up, but it can be incredibly helpful when someone with like experience says "hey I see a familiar pattern".

As someone who was also home schooled and had problems with social interactions in my early twenties the best advice I can give is join several clubs that does things in person.

You MUST learn how to make friends, how to not upset people, how to be comfortable in social situations and empathy.

To do this I would recommend that you force yourself into social situations regularly. Afterwards spend some time thinking about how the interaction went, especially from the other persons viewpoint, practice empathizing (it is a skill that can be learned and will make you a better more considerate person).

So join several clubs that meets and does something in person. You should have two scheduled social events every week.

Try your best to be aware of peoples feelings and groups social structure so that you can try to not trample all over either.

Going straight to upper management as you described is generally not well accepted and most definitely upsets middle management (the people who would actually hire you).

Basically, realize that the problem is who you are and that you need to become someone else to succeed. Changing your own personality is one of the hardest things one can do, so expect it to take a few years.

As someone who sometimes struggles with social stuff, join a club has never been useful advice for me. Its never worked out well, i'm not sure where y'all live where there are actually interesting clubs, and they're pretty awkward environments generally imo.

I've had better luck with do something with a more structured environment. E.g. take an in person class (something not work related. Learn sign language or something) but that takes $$$ and ymmv.

I think it used to be difficult to find decent clubs outside of school, but sites like meetup have tons of different groups. Language meetups are particularly plentiful. They are different from a class, but they are always open to people of various levels.

Honestly, i found clubs to be uncomfortable social interactions, even in university (actually, even in high school, and grade school). Maybe they're just not for me. Anyhow i found other ways to fulfil my social needs.

Fair enough, not everyone learns in the same way.

You are right that clubs will feel awkward, for the first 2-3 months anyway. But they will also challenge you to improve your social skills.

I've tried out meetup.com and went to one meetup. It was ok. I felt a little uncomfortable though. They solicited for my name, and email to be added to the Slack. There was a lot of recreational clubs etc at my college. I tried rock climbing, and liked it. There wasn't a lot of social interaction with rock climbing though. I went to a party in Austin. Chatted with strangers etc. Wasn't really sure what else to talk about. I've read somewhere that asking strangers for the time might be a good exercise to become more comfortable talking with people.

I asked people that for a while. Except when one guy responded "It's time to get a watch" lol, I became blushed and kinda embrassed. I saw a comment recommending How to Win Friend and Influence People which I definitely want to read.

The secret to being a good conversationalist is to have the other person do most of the talking, and everyone's favorite thing to talk about is themselves.

Being, and therefore appearing, genuinely interested in what the other person is saying about themselves creates the best feelings in the world for the other person, and you won't run out of things to talk about.

"You just got a new dog? Cool!"

Then you can ask any follow up question you like.

What kind? What's their name? Where'd you get them from? Do you feed them "people food"?.. etc.

One question at a time of course, and avoid queuing them up in your head. When the other person is talking, try very hard not to think of the next thing you're going to say. If you do that, you'll miss what they're actually saying and eventually say something that makes it clear you weren't listening. Similarly, you'll miss out on each new bit of the conversation, and those new bits are the basis of new, honest, follow up questions.

You don't have to be interested in dogs generally, to be interested in them temporarily. "Being interested, intentionally" is a skill you can improve.

Don't try to direct the flow of the conversation too much either. Go into your next conversation with friends, family, coworkers, or strangers with a truly open mind about what you're going to talk about, with no agenda, and be happy knowing it could change at any time.

Your job is to listen and ask more.

A lot of supposed "conversations" are just two people looking at each other, waiting for their turn to talk. If you're going to do that you might as well each write your sentences down beforehand, exchange them, and then throw them away without reading them.

The truth is, nobody wants to hear what you have to say. They don't want to hear what I have to say. They want to tell you about what's going on in their lives and what's important to them.

I hear people say this so much and it's so incredibly not true for me but I dunno if I'm different, they're all full of it, or both.

Serious question.

Which parts of it aren't true for you?

Have you found that making extra effort to be interested in the other person's ideas / topics / interests, listening carefully, etc. isn't well received?

Or is "nobody wants to hear what you have to say" not true, because you do care what other people have to say, for example? (Obviously that's great if so)

Or something else?

I ask because I started making that kind of effort a couple years ago, slowly but surely, getting better as I went. I didn't tell anybody, but after about a year one friend was like, "you know, you're interested in what we do and you really care. Nobody else does that." And another friend chimed in and agreed. (And I really do care! Sure it's intentional, but it's like eating healthy food, and then you grow to like it)

They were being serious. So if you believe me when I'm telling you this, it has been true for me and those friends.

I also think it's true that most people are oblivious to the extra mental effort that goes into approaching conversations this way, and just leave thinking "finally, someone who gives my ideas the credit and attention they are due. Now if I could just get everyone else to act that way"

And that's fine with me

For me, it's inaccurate in that I don't really like to talk about myself - especially ad hoc. And some friends really are interested in what's going on in my life (and I need to push myself to share more).

I find are two types of people - talkers and non-talkers. There is significant but not complete overlap with introverts and extroverts, but some introverts are talkers if they can get someone who will actually listen - others won't really talk regardless, and really prefer to let the other person carry the conversation (or companionable silence, or end the conversation).

Conversation skills differ depending on the pairing - but everyone appreciates someone who listens to understand, not just waits while thinking about what they will say next.

Talker with another talker - listen, ask occasional questions, and give the other person lots of chances to talk. Reduce how much you share.

Talker with a non-talker: Also listen, ask occasional questions, but don't expect too much response - but keep trying to draw out more & find things the other person wants to talk about. Be willing to carry more than your half of the conversation, but that comes naturally, so be careful not to dominate.

Non-talker with a talker: The talkers will love you if you listen! Be attentive, follow along, give verbal and non-verbal acknowledgements and reactions, ask questions, push yourself to share more and "hold up your end of the conversation".

Non-talker with another non-talker. This is rough. You have to pretend you're a talker and carry more than half the conversation. Share more. Work harder to get questions and listen, consider, and ask follow-up questions. It can be really helpful to have questions and topics prepared in advance (good conversation doesn't have to be extemporaneous).

Right? My conversation problems all stem from my own dislike of talking about myself.

I think this is a misunderstanding of the advice. I don’t particularly like talking about my life because I live it, and it’s mostly pretty boring. But I do like discussing certain topics. The advice is to find what the other person like discussing, and discuss it in a way that makes them feel you are listening to their point of view.

Personally I don’t think I’ve ever really failed when I use this approach. You can go in with something as direct as, “so, what topic would you like to talk about?” And more often than not have a good conversation.

Even more reason to let the other person talk about themself if they enjoy it.

If both of you dislike talking about yourselves then try to explain something about a subject that you find interesting.

Edit: I want to add that not liking something does not mean you can't be good at it.

Which part isn't true for you?

Oh geez. Please don't let strangers on the internet diagnose you.

They seem to be open to it, and pretty desperate for advice since they've already tried a lot of things. I'm sure a lot of advice is wrong but maybe some of it will help!

How To Win Friends is a great book for fine tuning interpersonal skills in adversarial situations such as sales calls and job interviews. It's worth a read. But I wouldn't recommend it as something to internalize for actually making friends. It mostly teaches how to seem empathetic as leverage in negotiations. It's more important IMO to develop real empathy through routinely putting yourself in other people's shoes, both when interactimg with them and when passively observing situations.

> How To Win Friends is a great book for fine tuning interpersonal skills ... I wouldn't recommend it as something to internalize for actually making friends.

I would even argue this book can harm your friendships. Really, the whole book is only about friendships that you try to seek value from. That said, there are tons of books worth reading. The therapist can most likely recommend books that are really useful for "homework".

FWIW at some point in my life I also realized I need to improve my social circle and went for asking for the time and all that. Please don't do that, consult with your therapist and just learn by doing otherwise. People tend to think there is one way a person has to be.

Anyways, it's really bad with Covid right now but once that's over, there'll be plenty of opportunity to go to real Meetups, public events and all that.

> They solicited for my name, and email to be added to the Slack.

Your terminology here says a lot, right?

If you are going to a meetup to meet people, then the whole point is to get to know people. And yes, that will involve them knowing your name, and communicating with you.

To open up your job prospects: realize this is normal and desirable.

Hmm I would give rock climbing another shot, pandemic aside rock climbing especially at gyms is very social, I’ve even quit gyms because some are more akin to night clubs than climbing gyms.

Bouldering? Ask for beta or work a problem with someone. Top rope or sport? The gym should have a program for people looking for belay partners.

Give it another shot

As someone who has struggled their entire life with feeling like I don't understand people, I feel your pain.

I don't know what kind of climbing you were doing, but I've found bouldering very social. Bouldering problems are short and very intense so you spend most of your time sitting on the mat resting, which inevitably leads to conversation. If you don't have a group to go with or haven't tried bouldering, but would like to continue climbing, I would recommend taking a group bouldering class or the like once COVID dies down. That's a good way to meet people who like the sport and are the same level as you.

This might be a little presumptuous as I don't know anything about you, but since you're in Texas - church/temple/synagogueetc is also a great option if you want to meet people. People want you to join their church so they will be friendly and make an effort to welcome you. Many churches have coffee or small refreshments after the service just so people can socialize. There may even be programs, planned social activities, bible studies or whatnot for new members. This is my bias but I would go to a non-denominational Christian church, the crowd is likely to be younger, more diverse, more interesting, and the music will sound like it's from this century. If you don't like the people, the particular church, or just simply learn that you don't believe in God, you can always just leave, you have no obligation to stay. I myself don't attend church anymore but I must admit they are astoundingly effective social support structures. If you've ever been curious in any way about religion you might as well try it.

So what you need to do in that situation is smile and happily give your name + email, then set aside an hour a week to chat with people in that slack channel.

Parties are not really good places to learn social skills, people are generally partially drunk and behave differently than they would anywhere else.

Look at this list of hobbies [1], pick two that you think looks interesting and has a club in your local area. Then join those clubs and show up at every opportunity. If you are asked to join a special event or help out with something or join a forum/chat room then smile and say "yes, I would love to".

Try to stick with the same club for at least a year.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hobbies

Try more meetups in person, even if they're awkward! Great way to both network for your next job and sharpen your social skills.

You're also young. Plenty of well-adjusted people with jobs and families did idiotic things when they were 20, too.

A lot of decorum and etiquette is just practicing enough to learn unwritten rules. Maybe it would help have more casual social interaction.

Might be tough in the age of covid, but there's lots of socializing and networking opportunities outside traditional interviewing. Meetups could be good, because you'd practice in the context of technical discussions and presenting your skillset, which is sorta like interviewing.

My second piece of advice would be to read How to Win Friends and Influence People. It formally codifies a lot of the unspoken rules that charismatic people take for granted.

Speaking from personal experience I think it’s a good possibility you’re on the spectrum. I can’t say for sure of course. But I can say taking some time to find resources that might help you understand if that’s part of what’s going on might help you navigate both the issues you’ve discussed here, and working with your therapist to determine any steps you might want to take toward diagnosis.

I’ll also say I have been where you’re at as you describe. You sound very capable, but you haven’t had the opportunity to thrive. I also had an abusive childhood.

I won’t say what’s important is overcoming all your obstacles and persevering. I’ll say this: you have shown you have a desire for more and you’ve shown you have a capacity for more. I believe you can do it.

I’ll echo one thing other people said but in a different way. I don’t think you should set your sights lower. I think you should consider looking for smaller ponds and see how big a fish you turn out to be. Some of those smaller ponds are wonderful, might even be more wonderful for you than the big ones you’ve looked into.

I've had struggles too. I'm now in a much better place.

If you want some FANG interviewing advice or just a general career/life sounding board, feel free to email me at the email on my profile.

this goes for anyone else struggling.

Don’t apologize to people who give you abuse. Not on the Internet and not in real life.

No on minds someone that is weird and quiet. The weird and noisy is a problem. Try keeping to yourself (it's hard, I know) and let your work speak for you.

> No on minds someone that is weird and quiet

In my experience, this has definitely not been true. People will assume you're being standoffish even though you're just minding your own business, just aren't a very talkative person, are focused on solving a problem, etc.

If you're trying to "play the game," you'll probably be better off (in some sense) spending less time on work and more time being affable.

I had this same read. Also I'm incredibly disappointed to see this very kind and encouraging approach marked "flagged dead". OP doesn't seem to be upset about discussing the possibility and added some helpful clarification. This comment shouldn't be moderated the way it has been.

ah hacker news, where you can get both job advice and a diagnosis at the same time.